The Underscore Transformation Podcast
Season Bonus Mini-Series: The Future of Work (Episode 7)
Hosts: Jason West & Joe Ales
Guests: Mari Milsom & Simon Brown
[INTRO]
JASON WEST: Welcome to the Underscore Transformation Podcast. My name's Jason West.
JOE ALES: My name's Joe Ales.
JASON: And together we're the founders of Underscore. This is the seventh episode in our bonus mini-series on the future of work. Last week, our special guests were Mari Milsom, Resourcing Transformation Consultant at Capita; Simon Brown, freelance HR Transformation Consultant; and Underscore's Joe Ales, playing the role of knowledgeable panelist in what has to be the standout performance of the year.
JASON: (Teasing) So, Joe, how did you find the role of informed panelist? It must have been a stretch after talking to me for so many weeks.
JOE: (Laughs) Oh gosh, yes. It was certainly different. It was actually really good fun to be on the other side of the fence. Primarily because we've done transformation projects for a long, long time, so we've actually got a lot of experience and knowledge in this space that I'm quite happy to share with our fellow listeners. It was an interesting thing.
[ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION]
JASON: It's interesting that there's been a real consistency in a lot of the conversations that we've had between the three different panels. There's definitely this need to focus on things like data. Simon mentioned that again, didn't he? Particularly—not so much data analysis—it was data integration that he actually called out as being a really specific skill set. He's really right to do that. Unless you're huge, with hundreds of thousands of employees, it's unlikely you're going to need to do a huge amount of data integration on a regular basis.
JOE: Yes. And the reality is that a lot of these systems now are enterprise-wide systems. They will connect with a whole load of other systems across the organization. Long gone are the days where functions will implement a standalone solution just for their own function. These cloud technologies will naturally start to integrate into the broader enterprise ecosystem. It's natural that there's a high demand for those skills.
JASON: Yeah. Staying on a point that Simon made, I really liked his view that you need a blended team to implement these technology solutions. It can't just be consultants, or contractors, or just permanent staff. The best outcome is to actually have a blended team when you're implementing, because there are strengths and weaknesses among people coming from those different parts of the market.
JOE: Yeah, and he made a point that for many, this will be new. They wouldn't have done this type of work before. So, it's important to leverage the experience and knowledge of people who have been there, done it, know where the trapdoors are, and engage with them so that you don't make the same mistakes. You can just anticipate those recurring issues that happen with every single program. They can be prevented if you've got the right partners and advisors with the right skills around the table. That was a key point very well made by Simon.
JASON: I think Mari made a really interesting point around opening up project opportunities for internal staff to bid on. It's going to help their skills development, their capabilities, and their careers. That's not something that necessarily happens that way, is it? It tends to be a tap on the shoulder.
JOE: Yeah, we don't often see it. But actually, there is a scarcity of skill sets in the market around some of these things. If you've got capability internally—even in other corners of the organization—and you're able to tap into it and bring that skill set onto your project, why not? I think it's brilliant. Maybe we will start to see a lot more of that as data and insights around people's skills become more widely available. A lot of organizations probably don't do that because they don't have that information at their fingertips. As talent solutions get deployed, businesses will leverage all of that data to say, "Well actually, we've got capability to do program management or data migration. Let's tap into it." It'd be a great world to be in.
JASON: Yeah, it gets cited a lot, doesn't it? That LinkedIn knows more about the skills and knowledge of your staff than you do! There's a real incentive and a decent UI on there for people to keep their experience updated, more so than in your internal systems. So yeah, they know more about your people than you do.
JOE: Yeah. Having projects like that internally encourages and incentivizes individuals to record their skill set in the database, because they might be tapped up to do something really interesting. So, we'll pick up where we left off. Over to you, Jason, to continue the debate.
[THE PERMANENT MARKET & SKILL MISMATCH]
JASON: So, if you've identified that you've got this enduring need for design thinking, data analysis, and change capabilities, how readily available are HR people from the market who have these skills if you're hiring permanently?
SIMON BROWN: I think one thing to consider is experience. When someone has gone through a whole transformation experience once, they're quite well equipped to help an organization know what to look out for, where we can accelerate, where we can simplify, and what the traps are to avoid. One of the benefits is—to use that phrase—if you've "seen the movie play out," you know what's going to happen. You're quite well equipped to help others who have never made that journey before. It's based on just pure experience of having done this in a practical way, being seasoned, and having felt the pain and the gain. Another aspect is just that pure willingness to want to embrace change, and perhaps wanting to bring some of the digital transactions we experience as consumers into the workplace. If you have that willingness, and combine it with somebody who knows what good looks like, that can help enable the organization to make the journey.
JASON: And is there a particular skill set where there is a real mismatch between the demand that people have and the supply from the market when it comes to these transformation or digital business skills?
SIMON: One area that is quite difficult to find is data integration. When you're looking at process, system, people, and data, there are four factors there which need to align. The data piece is really important because without a good data flow and the ability to report, you don't have the trust to say, "These management reports are accurate." Often I've seen a challenge where having those data integration skills internally is not easy, and going to a large consultancy to find them is not easy either. It tends to be quite a specialist area. It's not something that you're doing inside a company every week or every month; it's something you do as you start to implement and make configurations in a system. So, buying that in is rather like the kicker in American football—they're not on the pitch all the time, but sometimes you need to bring them in so that you can score when you need to score.
JASON: Yes, yeah. And Mari, you touched on that kind of mindset piece before. Are there any other areas that have this kind of real mismatch between what's needed and what the market can supply on a permanent basis?
MARI MILSOM: (Sighs) Gosh, I think an area that I'm seeing more and more is around things like strategic workforce planning. It's something we've talked around in HR for a long time. As businesses develop their strategy, actually working out what the skills are that we're going to need—and how to get to them—is something that most HR generalists will really struggle with. That is something that periodically is going to need to be done, where HR will need to buy in some expert resource. Part of that is the strategic thinking as well. We need people who can describe what good will look like in the future, and how things are going to change.
JOE: Yeah, I fully agree with that, actually. If I look back at HR over the years, it's something that they've struggled with throughout. And that stems from their ability to engage the business on strategic conversations—knowing what capabilities the organization needs in the short, medium, and long term, and constructing that people plan. As you mentioned earlier, Mari, HR functions are far too reactive to business requests. They're not very often on the front foot. And at a practical level, they don't know how to. I've helped a number of organizations and just asked, "What tools and practices do you use to determine future workforce requirements?" And it's on spreadsheets and PowerPoint slides; nothing systematic. There lies the issue.
JOE: The other skill is around business partnering. We've been toying with this idea for years, haven't we? About getting HR business partners to engage more strategically. If I look at it on a practical level, they're not having those strategic conversations; they're having operational ones. The business partners are often the "yes" people that do the transactional work the business leaders want them to. HR functions really have to step up.
JOE: They're in a perfect storm right now, aren't they? Because HR is front and center of everything that's happening with COVID—guiding businesses through furlough rules and workforce management during these difficult times. HR has got to use this as a platform to really elevate themselves, so they've got to equip themselves with all of these skills. Strategic workforce planning for me is key, business partnering is another, and data insights is the third. You're going to have to tap into people data more and more on a daily basis in real-time.
MARI: Yeah, I think they've got to stop— and not revert back to—managing people processes for the business. You're absolutely right. They spend way too much time with the trade unions, managing pay processes, performance processes, and redundancies, as opposed to actually driving the strategic agenda.
SIMON: Yes, it's very much still operationally focused, isn't it? That transition to be transformative, forward-thinking, and to leverage data is the mind shift. To be a true business partner as opposed to a supporter. As you say, Joe, perversely, there's an opportunity now through COVID because we have to do things differently. HR has the opportunity to step into that place and not just default back once we reach our new normal. Sometimes it's about a mindset, growing assertiveness skills, and thinking more commercially rather than just thinking about policies and procedures.
[ATTRACTING & SELECTING THE RIGHT TALENT]
JASON: It can be a real challenge though, can't it? When you've identified you need these new skills and this new mindset, but you've got to attract them into an organization that might be quite traditional today.
[AD BREAK]
VOICEOVER: You are listening to the Underscore Transformation Podcast. If you'd like a few more tools in your crisis management kit bag, why not visit underscore-group.com/cmr-toolkit to hone your crisis management skills and lead your organization through recovery.
JASON: How would you best go about attracting people in that have got these kinds of skills and mindsets? Simon, you touched on it a bit before, but it'd be good if you could expand on that.
SIMON: Yeah, what I said before is to identify people who have already had that positive experience in another organization, where they've had the opportunity to grow those skills or worked as an internal consultant. But also, one thing not to underestimate is that some of these skills are transferable across functions. We don't necessarily have to look only at HR as our talent pool. I've seen quite a few organizations looking at leveraging marketing skills, for example, or business analyst skills into this environment.
SIMON: And lastly, we probably have a lot more talent in our organization than we are able to identify through traditional methodology. People bring life skills from outside of work into the work context. I've seen quite recently how mentoring has tremendous benefits where people can connect, network, and transfer knowledge with each other outside of those traditional organization charts. Cross-company mentoring is something that taps into knowledge that people have that isn't traditionally recognized within their job descriptions.
JOE: Yes, those informal networks across organizations really need to be encouraged as well, don't they? To build connections and relationships.
SIMON: And again in COVID, we've done quite a lot of that, haven't we? Underscore is a great example—running events, podcasts, and webinars to exchange information across organizations. People working virtually opens a mindset to how you can exchange knowledge virtually, versus the old "I must be in the office face-to-face" mentality.
JASON: Yeah, absolutely. And Mari, I'm interested in your perspective from your previous resourcing leadership roles. When you're having to attract in these quite different people, how do you go about selecting them when you don't actually have those skills and capabilities in-house today?
MARI: It's a really interesting challenge. You are looking for a skill and a type of behavior that you may not necessarily have in the organization. If you use your traditional methodology where one of your considerations is "organizational fit," then you are immediately restricting the pool. Traditionally, we also demand a certain level of sector experience, or demand that somebody has HR experience, which may or may not be necessary for the role. What I'm looking at at the moment with Capita is actually what we're calling "cultural add." Rather than somebody needing to fit in with our culture, we're looking for people who are going to add something to our culture. But you also have to recognize that you are going to have to put extra support in place for those people, because they are going to go into an organization that doesn't currently work or behave like them. That's a really tough ask if you're trying to make a change.
JASON: Yeah, because if people are going to fit into your current culture, then how are they going to change that culture?
MARI: Exactly. It's a traditional bias that straight away selects people who look and act like we currently do. But they are not going to be able to make the changes that we need. You need to attract people, but give them the support and be really up front right at the start about how you're going to support them and some of the challenges they're going to face. The only way to do it is to throw the rule book out in terms of what we've traditionally done from a resourcing perspective.
SIMON: And have that inclusive approach. I'm seeing some recruiter roles now which are specifically looking at inclusion and diversity. It's actually broadening it into recognizing that innovation comes through diversity, having different ways of thinking and different backgrounds. It's a conscious effort to say, "Let's break the mold and widen this in order to create an environment where people can be creative."
MARI: Absolutely. And we have to go into their space to find them, and assess them in their space in a way that makes sense to them, not necessarily in a way that makes sense to us. Some of our traditional assessment methodologies expect somebody to come to our organization, understand our organization, and behave in a way that we think they should at an interview. We need to throw that out because it just puts guardrails in around our current culture.
JASON: So, it sounds like you really do have to rethink the whole process—not just who you're looking for, but how you select the right people.
MARI: Absolutely, yeah. You can't continue to use the same selection methodologies, because you'll only get the same outcomes. As resources, we've always held ourselves up as protecting diversity, trying to make sure we get the absolutely best person. But actually, we've got so much bias in our resourcing processes that describes "best" in what can be a very white, middle-class business way that stops a huge wealth of knowledge from coming in.
JOE: That's really interesting, because we're the gatekeepers in a way of that process. But then we're also relying heavily on changing hearts and minds across the organization too. Ultimately, that hiring manager making the decision needs to be brought on a journey to realize that asking certain questions will create bias, or that looking for people from only certain universities limits the background of those individuals. It takes a cultural change across an organization, and a lot of resilience from resourcing and HR functions to drive that change in behavior—holding firm with those hiring managers who will be difficult to persuade to think differently.
MARI: Well, if HR is going to lead from the front, it's got to get comfortable being uncomfortable, and not just solving problems for the business, but actually sometimes making them! In order to make change, you've got to make problems as well.
JOE: Do you think HR functions are really ready and resilient to do that today? Or do you think it's something they're going to have to develop over the next 6, 12, or 18 months?
MARI: Unfortunately, I don't think they're ready. I think a minority are, and I think there are some great leaders out there. But this is where we are going to need organizations like the CIPD to start to step up, and also CEOs of big businesses to start to really keep HR at that top table.
SIMON: Certainly. There was a recent survey of CEOs asking them to identify the top 10 issues that needed to be addressed to enable their organization to thrive. Not surprisingly, seven out of those top 10 were people-related topics. So, if these seven aspects of a business are the enablers, what can we do to build that capability so that we can really grow in these areas, and how can we build the assertiveness to sustain this? Change is an essential; it's a condition of continuing to play the game. It's our ability to adopt and to evolve that will decide whether an organization is successful. The "people stuff" is not a nice-to-have, it's a key criterion to enable success.
[SUMMARY & CLOSING ADVICE]
JASON: We're going to have to wrap up, unfortunately, but before we do, it'd be really good to get your final views. If you were a chief people officer looking to get the best possible return out of your technology to build an agile and flexible workforce, what would be your advice to them? Simon, let's start with you.
SIMON: In terms of technology, I think firstly not to see technology alone, but to see it as part of the DNA along with data, process, and people. Cloud solutions clearly are flexible, and the ability for people to be able to do their own transactions, automation, self-service, and reporting is clearly part of that. I'd certainly recommend them to look at an end-to-end cloud solution to underpin that, because when these systems are implemented, they can probably contribute at least 50% to driving the change because of the way roles and responsibilities are constructed in that system. I would see that as being an enabler and a backbone, but not the single solution.
JASON: Yes, it's definitely not the be-all and end-all, just putting the technology in. Mari, your perspective?
MARI: I think the CHRO needs to have a look around their table and go, "Who in my organization is driving the transformation agenda? Who is looking at the future of this organization and how we harness that technology?" as opposed to who is potentially getting caught up with turning the handle in the day job. And it may not necessarily be the CHRO or the CPO, because actually a great leader needs to put those skills in and have them around them—and maybe pass the strategy to somebody else who has the time and capacity to do it.
JASON: And Joe, what would your advice be?
JOE: In addition to what Mari and Simon mentioned, I would suggest that CPOs need to make sure they have the right infrastructure in place to sustain the change and deliver on those business case commitments post-go-live. Additionally, they need to make sure the function has the capability to engage the business in a fundamentally different way. Business leaders will now have access to data and insights they wouldn't have had access to in the past, and I have no doubt that they will be the ones asking challenging questions of the CPO's function.
JASON: It's been a great discussion today, and as ever, we are literally just scratching the surface of this topic. (Laughs) But some really practical advice there for our listeners that they can apply in their organization. So look, thank you all for your insights and for sharing your experience today. Thank you.
MARI: Thank you.
SIMON: Thank you.
JOE: Thank you.
[OUTRO]
JASON: So, that's it for the Future of Work mini-series. We hope you've enjoyed it. We've certainly had some great guests, and it's given us an awful lot to think about. In fact, it's actually inspired us to start designing a new leadership development program that's going to give people the skill set, toolset, and mindset they need to thrive in a digital, post-COVID world.
JOE: So, we're going to take a break for a few weeks. We'll be back in October to continue our regular Transformation Podcast that's going to focus on transition and go-live. This will be our third season. To learn more about the initial phases of transformation, take a listen to our back catalogue for practical advice on the critical success factors when scoping, designing, building, and testing a transformative business change. If you've found this episode useful, remember to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your colleagues and your network. Thank you.
[END OF EPISODE]
